Click on this link with right mouse button to download a video (18MB) in Windows Mediaplayer format (version 6.4 or later)
Transcript:
December 15, 1999, 12:45 p.m.
M: If you remember I was here in August '98.
S: At Dody's (restaurant) ... excuse me
M: And we were talking about the big book. And I asked you who was the author of the big book.
S: Uhuh (confirmation)
M: ... if Bill Wilson was the author. And you told me "He was no way the author, he was a promoter."
S: He was a promoter. Yeah, I still believe it. Nobody will ever change my mind on that one.
M: And I am a member ...
S: Where is Brian, I thought he was going to ... (have it, he has a copy of her written deposition)
M: Yes, he is from Cleveland. He is a member of my home group.
S: Okay.
M: Because he was in Germany for three or four years. And we were at Frankfurt airport. We had an AA group. And he was a member of that home group. But he is from Cleveland originally. So he returned two years ago.
S: Was he in the service over there or something?
M: Ja, ja.
S: I thought, that's what he told me.
2
-------
S: Well, how did your case come out?
M: You already know about the law suit from AAWS against us?
S: Oh yeah, he (Brian) told us about that at the time, when I signed those papers for you ... this year before I got sick.
M: They had two law suits. One of (them) was because of the German translation of the big book, which was made from the manuscript.
S: I can hardly hear you, Matthew.
M: There were two law suits from AA Inc. One was because of the German translation of the manuscript.
S: Oh.
M: And another was because of foreign language versions of the big book including English and Russian and Swedish and Finnish and even Hebrew.
3
------------------------
M: And the court did not consider your deposition, which you signed and notarized.
S: They did what?
M: The court did not even consider ...
S: So they didn't even consider it, huh?
M: your deposition.
S: Well.
M: Because the lawyers from AAWS said: "Well, she is 82 already ..."
S: No I'm not, not yet!
M: "And she does not remember well. And she contradicts herself. And in this book ..."
S: (sarcastic) Where did they get all that information? From my deposition?!
M: They got it from this book "Children of the Healer". And there it says that Bill was the author.
S: That what ... ?
M: That "Bill Wilson was the author of the big book". It says in "Children of the Healer". I will show you that.
S: They always said he was, but I never believed he was. I bet he stole it from AA's (i.e. from the group members without their knowledge or approval, the book was their possession).
M: That was your deposition..
4
--------------------------
M: "Children of the Healer". (a copy as submitted by AAWS Inc. handed over to Sue Smith)
5
--------------------------
S: (reading)
M: Here it says something to the extent ...
S: It says Bill wrote ... but it doesn't mean that the ideas were necessarily his. ... That's German. I can't read that.
M: Ja.
S: I read that (the English pages of "Children of the Healer".)
6
--------------------------
M: This book here was written by Christine Brewer.
S: Uhuh (confirmation).
M: Did you ever approve it?
S: What?
M: This book "Children of the Healer" was written by a lady. It was not written by you?
S: No (it was not).
M: Did she ever present you with a final draft to approve it? Or did she publish it on her own?
S: No
7
----------------
S: Smitty and I were kids, you know, at the same age. And we had our thing, we were doing our thing. And so ... In a way at that time AA was a way for us to get out of the house without too much supervision. ... But they talked many hours and they talked late at night. Kept me awake a few nights. Because I slept on the davenport some of the time. ... and ...
M: You also said that they were sitting around the kitchen table
S: That's right ...
M: ... at your house ...
S: That's when they were writing the book. Yeah ...
M: and editing ...
S: ... and the dining room table too.
M: Ja.
S: They were ... How can all the stories at the end of the book be considered Bill's stories? They aren't his stories. He didn't make that up. Those were written by individuals.
M: Of course.
S: So, at least my dad had one story in there. That's one thing you (Matthew) put in there (in the court case legal writings). I just can't ... Well, just Bill pounced on something (like the fox in a henhouse) and took. Then he kept it up. Until they goofed and lost it. (She refers to AAWS failing to apply for copyright renewal 1987). And I am glad they lost it. I am glad they lost it. Because they weren't ... ah ... (it appears) to me, that were not doing the right thing by it anyhow.
8
------------------
S: I do remember, at the time that the chapters (of the book) would come to the house then they corrected them . And the Akron people beefed about a lot of it (did not agree with a lot of it). So, everybody here thought they were doing it just to make money. And I think they were right. I think they were right.
M: And from the Akron chapter (group) it was wanted or wished that it was made not to make money, but to help other people. And for free.
S: Well, Henrietta (Seiberling) and Bill had a big fight about the money part of it. For years. They wouldn't hardly (speak) ... Henrietta wouldn't hardly speak to Bill. And that's so.
M: And what was Anne's position in that?
S: Huh?
M: And what was Anne's position in that? Your mother's (position)?
S: My mother's?
M: Yes.
S: Well, I think she wanted something written on it, because it was pretty hard at that time. Things were .... we were really beginning to come together, you know, in bunches. And the people here in Akron weren't strong enough yet, or weren't powerful enough yet. When I say powerful I mean there weren't enough of them to really take care of all these people coming in. (She refers to the articles in the newspaper Cleveland Plain Dealer). So as far as writing the book is concerned I'm sure that my Mom OK'd it. I mean that she was for it. But I don't think my Mother was for the fact they took my Mothers notebook and tore the hell out of it.
M. There's many quotations from that
S: Yes there was/is. Of course that's over at Brown now (Brown University , Providence, Rhode Island, Collection of Archives on Alcoholic History. Under the care of Prof. D. Lewis) what's left of it.
9
-------------
M: And so people were sitting at the table and doing the editing. Do you remember some names?
S: From doing editing of the book at all, I remember them writing their stories...... at our dining room table. They had those old school pads you know, that you use with pencil, ink would spurt all over and that's ... there was Ernie ( Ernie Gailbraith Sue's deceased husband. An early member of the Akron group, his story is " A Seven Month Slip")and there was Jim ... Jim Scott.
M: Jim Scott was a professional.
S: Bill Dotson would not do it, and at first Clarence Snyder wouldn't do it, but he finally did do it. Who else was there?
M: That means Clarence Snyder didn't want to write his story or he didn't want to have ...
S: No, he was against it.
M: Ah ja.
S: He was against it. And ... well you've seen Mitch Klein's book. That's a pretty good book. He's got a pretty good record of Clarence, I think. ... But there are a lot of people, (who) would come here, you know, like you are here now. I can't visit with them very long. You can see how my throat (is). Well, I don't know why it is doing that today. It hasn't been doing (that) since the weather ... Well anyhow. That's the reason I want them. And I do enjoy the book. I gave my son one of them (of the books). And gave one to ...(noise)
M: You are talking about this one.
S: Yeah, that's fine. (looking at the copy of the book). That's it.
M: So let's recall: Clarence was first reluctant to write his story, but afterwards did.
S: Who? What?
M: Clarence Snyder was first reluctant ...
S: right...
M: to write his story. And he was against it. But why was he against that?
S: Well, I think he thought that ... He was a Dr. Bob man. He wasn't a Bill Wilson man. And I think he always thought that Bill Wilson was a gyp (cheater, cun man, a fraud, thief). And that's why he thought that Bill was in it just for money. And I think finally either my mom, dad and/or Dorothy, his wife at that time, probably told him to go ahead and do it. You know, he had a good story. So, why not help the people, who had his problem? So I think that's why they finally persuaded him to do it.
M: And Jim Scott was kind of a professional writer?
S: He was a newspaper man.
M: From the (Cleveland) Plain Dealer, or where was he?
S: The Akron Beacon Journal. Yeah, he lived here in Akron. He was a good guy.
M: And was he told the stories by the people and he put them down, or did the people first put it down themselves?
S: No, he would. They would write it and then he would sort of go over it with them. You know. - I was wondering how long your knees would take that. (laughter)
M: Kneeling before you?
S: Yeah, kneeling before me. And I sure propose ... (not doing that ??) But anyhow, then of course Bill Dotson, he said it was for money all the time, he never would (submit his story). But it's in the third edition, I think, isn't it. (coughing) Excuse me. Well, anyhow. I don't know. They ... None of them really knew what to do with it. And Jim would help them with some thoughts he had or bring up some thoughts that should go in it. And I know I helped type a couple of those. Not too many, but I did help type some of them, because it was my practice at business school.
M: Ja.
S: So I did it. And the same way I typed my mom's note book.
10
-------------
M: Have you ever been to Germany. No. And I don't wonna go either.
M: Ah ja.
S: Nope, I don't wonna go cross the pond (Atlantic) either way. I'd become that fish food.
M: You are afraid it will crash down?
S: I don't ... I am not one for travelling. Of course now it's worse. I don't wonna go at this. If I am still on oxygen this badly, ... next year I probably won't do to Minneapolis. But then again, I may. I don't know. When they have that dedication at Brown for this collection they are going to get me up there some way besides an airplane. Dr. Lewis knows how. He has met me, you know, and he's had some doings. And so I imagine the next thing is a limousine, right. So with the right combination of oxygen and stuff I might try that.
M: But just by car.
S: Yeah.
M: Not by plane.
S: No. I don't think my lungs will take it any more. Then they run in ... (trouble)
11
-------------
M: We are giving those books to prisoners and to others who can't afford it, because we think ...
S: Well, what would you charge, if you were going to sell it.
M: It was designed to be not for sales at all.
S: But you take donations, don't you?
M: Yes donations only. We distributed 80.000 copies to the Californian jail system.
S: Oh, that's good.
M: And we donated 50.000 to Russia.
S: Now they can use it.
M: Because they are good at drinking. (shows her a copy) Look that's it ...
S: We can't ... (use a Russian version) Oh, that's the Russian, or not? ... That's nice. "The little Big Book" That would be very nice.
M: Because what I feel obliged to, is ... AA has become a business.
S: Yes.
M: And it should not be a business.
S: That's right.
M: It should be God's love at work.
S: Yes, it's big business. --- I don't know?! Something went the wrong direction somewhere along the line, didn't it. And it had to start in New York.
M: Yes. Sad. --- The German court probably would like to have you as a witness. But because you can't come over they would have to have an American judge to interview you right here on the spot.
S: Well, I don't know if I really know a heck of a lot, Matthew. About all I can do is repeat some of that (her writings of January 7, 1999).
M: Yes, that might be enough.
S: Well, they didn't take it the first time. Maybe they wouldn't know ... (better). She (the notary public) said this really wasn't set up for a notarization anyhow. I don't know what she meant by that, but she said that she would do it. She said it's not set up for the notarization. Now, I had that done at my bank.
M: (pointing to photos) That were the pictures taken when I was there.
S: (recognizes the spot) Dody's!
M: Yes at Dody's. ...
S: There is the sweater I was wearing. (pointing to the end of her bed.) This was on the front porch.
M: Ja, ja. True. We were sitting out there. (pointing in that direction)
S: With whom did you come here?
M: I, I came with ... (forgot the name).
S: Ray? Did you come with Ray?(Archivist of Dr. Bob's Home in Akron)
M: Ja.
S: Uhu. Okay. (gives a copy of her deposition of Jan 99 back to M.) ... Where is the original? In court?
M: Yes. I think you got a copy somewhere.
S: This is a copy.
M: Ja, this is a copy I made. But I could leave this here. Or ...?
S: No. I don't need it.
12
-------------
M: The main thing is that it was a group effort to write the book and not of one single man.
S: That's right. And it burned me up on that Time Magazine article (TIME magazine, June 14, 1999, pg 110 - 112, where Bill Wilson is portrayed as being the most important man and the very root of AA). Did you get that one? Where they call Bill THE FOUNDER?
M: Yes.
S: Talk about getting ticked off.
-----
S: Well, let's see what happens. When is your new case coming up?
M: The last trial was on Friday last week (Dec 10, 1999). And then they postponed it until February or March next year, to see what the Supreme court (Oberlandgericht) had to say on the case. Because we filed appeal for the German books. We felt that the German court made a mistake by not even hearing your deposition. So they did not even consider it. They (AA Inc.) said you were practically nuts. And you should not be considered. And we thought that was an insult to you.
S: Oh, that takers [thieves] of the AA program! ... I'll bet they think that the Smith kids shouldn't be considered. That's been going on ever since dad died in 1950. So we are used to (familiar with) that crap. Of course it doesn't help your case any, I know. Well we will do what we can, I guess, on it. So, let me know.
M: We thank you for your time.
S: I enjoyed talking to you.
M: Try to stay around.
S: I just can't stand any length of time, you know. ... Okay. Give me a hug.
M: That's nice.
S: How tall are you?
M: I'm about six feet, six feet somewhat ...
S: That's same as my son's. He's six feet two ... Good bye ...